Podcast broadcast by Queer AF, held at Clifford Chance
The blurby bit
A live panel recording on “How do we win our rights?” with three Trans+ change and history makers, Roz Kaveney, Jude Guaitamacchi, Sabah Choudrey interviewed by Nancy Kelley.
This episode was recorded in front of an audience of 200 people in London’s Canary Wharf at our first-ever Trans+ History Week community event.
From the podcast description
Background
The podcast celebrates the first ever Trans+ History Week (NB: the plus sign now stuck to trans). Yet another special day – sorry week– just for the anointed, making the Catholic Saint calendar look fun-size by comparison. The awareness week is a UK trans activist initiative, being led by Queer Britain, the Museum of Transology and the Bishopsgate Institute, according to this article in Forbes magazine. However, neither Queer Britain nor Bishopsgate (also the current home of the Museum of Transology) ran any special events. Bishopsgate, I can understand, as they now run skeleton services due to almost bankruptcy, most likely due to its new obsession with kink, off putting to the adult learners it previously attracted. Stonewall, one of the supporting organisations for the week, informed us that the date was chosen to tie-in with ‘the anniversary of the Nazi raid on the world’s first ever trans clinic in 1933‘. On the QueerAF website (another organiser), we learnt that there were 20 paid pitches available for trans-identified people to create official content for Trans+ History Week. Diva Magazine reported that the project had received ‘enthusiastic support from corporate entities like Deloitte UK, Clifford Chance, Verizon Business, Reddit, and NQ64’. There’s no slowing down this gravy train!
This podcast recording was made at Clifford Chance (magic circle law firm) on 7 May 2024 and includes such luminaries as Roz ‘hairy prong’ Kaveney and job seeker Nancy Kelley. It was published by Queer AF, a community interest company.
The podcast
Introductions
Since being unceremoniously booted from Stonewall, Nancy Kelley is now ‘journalist’ for Diva mag, owned by great mate Lindy Riley and turns up on the trans activist circuit like a bad penny, loyalty repaid. Kelley was introduced as ‘incredible’ by the trans activist organiser but promised to only be ‘average’ instead (snort).
The audience whooped on her introduction of Roz Kaveney, described as a founding member of the Gay Liberation Front (a fact which is not backed up by anything I could see on Googling, and denied by a founding member I checked with), an award winning poet and novelist (won one award from the obscure Lambda Literary organisation and a few other references to being shortlisted, according to Kaveney’s own Wikipedia entry) and more ‘fancy starry friends than anybody I know’ (that’s because Kavva the Hut is about a million years old, Nancy).
Sabah Choudrey is a trans-identified female, whose main claim to fame is setting up Trans Pride Brighton. Kelley whooped-whooped (she did quite a lot of that). Choudrey is also a youth worker with Gendered Intelligence (one of Kelley’s favourite organisations) and Vice Chair on the Inclusive Mosque Initiative, which describes itself as an ‘intersectional feminist mosque’ but doesn’t have a building yet and are fully embracing of gender identity ideology. Kelley identified with Choudrey’s description of herself as a ‘reluctant activist’, a dismally stupid and disingenuous claim, when it is clear Kelley has actively pursued and revelled in trans activism from the off.
The final guest to be introduced was a personal mate of Kelley’s, professional trans Jude Guaitamacchi, behind the #LwiththeT hashtag, and founder of Trans Solidarity Alliance, which had ‘made history’ by running the first all-trans panel in Parliament on all things trans quite recently.
What are your reflections on the movement?
Back in the 80s, Kaveney worked at the Lesbian and Gay Centre, where he alleged bisexuals and ‘kink’ people were picked on (Julie Bindel’s article paints a rather different picture). Kaveney claims to have gained the role of deputy chair at Liberty (as it wasn’t known back then) through a range of solidarity activisms. ‘If it’s not your cause, show up and shut up,’ he drawled, to a round of enthusiastic applause. (Kaveney was very active with the pro-porn group Feminists Against Censorship and has spent his life skin-walking.)
Kelley then turned to the two women and wanted to know what their experience of solidaristic (sic) work was too. Choudrey claimed to have drifted into activism just by dint of being trans-identified. Trans Pride Brighton came into existence because her and her friends had had such a terrible experience at LGBT Brighton Pride, having not been taken ‘seriously’ by security and told what toilets to use. So they decided to have their own separate march – the T all alone (together, only together – NOT). A thousand people came to the first march, she hadn’t expected so many. Now in its eleventh year it attracts ‘tens of thousands’ and had inspired many other trans-led projects around the UK. Mentioning BLM gave Choudrey a chance to mention her book (on how to be an ally to QIPOC people) and the performative nature of much activism. She also reflected on how much effect testosterone had had on her face over the last ten years. Deep.
Unable to keep her attention away from the big bloke sat by her, Kelley wanted to know what had bought Kaveney back into activism. It used to be the case that people could be arrested for ‘walking while trans’, claimed Kaveney, this would never happen again, though trans people still lived with the threat of physical attacks. Kaveney didn’t answer the question as to why he was an activist again (though I doubt he ever wasn’t one), merely that it had slowed down his novel writing. One interesting admission though was that Kaveney said he had gotten into computers early and was still ‘terminally online’.
Tell us about your solidarity campaigns across communities and what effect it has on you.
We were are halfway through before Kelley finally decided to ask Jude Guaitamacchi a question. Kelley repeatedly pronounced ‘community’ dropping the T (which she did with other words too, like ‘fighting’ (fy-ing) in a desperate attempt to appear not middle class). We learnt that Guaitamacchi hadn’t actually come up with the #LwiththeT herself, rather it was two others in her collective, but who hadn’t wished to align themselves publicly with the project, so Guaitamacchi took it forward instead.
Guaitamacchi also claims that she hadn’t wanted to be involved in activism either, however in her first year of transitioning and living in Brighton she found she had stepped into a different world. No one knew that ‘anti-trans groups’ existed back then . That was until GetTheLOut (i.e. a literal handful of lesbians) had disrupted the beginning of London Pride. The different styles of activism that Guaitamacchi saw often clashed; some people wanted to turn up in masks, whereas others wanted to do silent protest. Then there were those who wanted to do political lobbying. It had been incredibly taxing to keep going and get cis allies to invest in the campaigns. Lesbians had been the ones most supportive of the work. Following the disruption of London Pride, trans activists made sure they were at the front of Pride marches around the world. The Trans Solidarity Alliance (Nancy Kelley is also a team member) was set up to unify all the independent trans groups and is now a non-profit. She was wistful about the past and making the links from the past to the future.
What was like coming out the campaign creation closet (i.e. as the originator of #LwiththeT)?
Irony-free zone as ever, Kelley chortled with delight that it hadn’t been ‘cis lesbians’ who had thought up the hashtag, revealing that Guaitamacchi had whispered the truth to her one night at a party. Guaitamacchi, humble as ever, repeated that she hadn’t thought of the line but had merely helped put it out there but was very keen to emphasise all of the people involved with the campaign were trans-identified. They decided to go public about that, as they started seeing headlines that lesbians were now taking matters into their own hands and they couldn’t have that, could they? It was time to centre trans people again and not let their hard work go unrecognised.
So much for a grass roots lesbian-led response then (even though it probably was, just by bearded ones with acne). The importance of ‘authenticity’ in identity politics is clearly very flexible. Let’s all remember it the next time one of our grass root groups are told ‘you don’t speak for women’.
We are living through an anti-trans, anti-immigration, anti-disabled moral panic. What would you share with people about how to deal with this?
Bearing in mind the audience were probably mainly employees of a company which had recently announced its annual profit was £2.4 billion, I think we can be fairly certain that few truly knew financial vulnerability. Kaveney told them not to be frightened as they would silence themselves, then contriving a pause, ejected a clearly rehearsed line:
Oh, fuck it. We’re pretty. We’re smart. We’re funny. One of the reasons people hate us, is that we’re so good. And we can glory in that.
Roz Kaveney on queer and trans people
Kaveney expanded on his theory of why queer and trans people were so bloody fantastic. It was because they had to do such a lot of work on themselves. This, apparently, is why they make such good engineers! (An inside joke with its origins in the Beaumont Society, whose membership had a sizeable number of engineers, see blog.)
Choudrey said that she was ‘transitioning into my aunty era’ (Aunty, is Kavva the Hut’s other nickname) and had come out wearing a doily (haven’t a clue but some laughed knowingly). She wanted to remind adult trans people to behave responsibly, especially with regards to trans young people, whether it be a club night or a healthcare service. Being responsible was important because those young people regarded trans adults as role models but moreover they had the scrutiny of people ‘who didn’t want them to succeed’. Was Choudrey troubled by some of the shenanigans she had seen over the years? She stressed that things had to be done ethically and within the law, whilst admitting that: ‘I know we didn’t get here by doing things right, so I can hear myself.’ A particularly interesting admission though, given her involvement with Gendered Intelligence as a youth worker.
‘We need to work together,’ was Guaitamacchi’s answer, referencing yet again #LwiththeT, which had been created without any input from lesbians or lesbian groups. She was concerned about political splintering of the various trans groups and wanted to find the common ground. The Trans Solidarity Alliance had been created not to compete but to listen. They were taking a look back at how Press 4 Change had operated, focussing on dealing with politicians.
Question & Answer
What can we say to trans children to give them some sense of hope?
Choudrey bemoaned that trans adults needed hope, before it could be passed onto youths. Returning to her theme of being more responsible, she explained this involved creatively rewriting guidance so that it was ‘more suitable for young people and their families’. Revealingly her and her fellow trans youth workers also needed time off to have their own tantrums. How very mature. The previous month they had worked through the trans history pack with the kids.
Kelley explained to us that Guaitamacchi worked a lot in schools and wanted her comment too. Guaitamacchi’s heart breaks for young trans people in this country, as they faced isolation in the home, in school, the wider world and media sphere. That hadn’t been her experience growing up (so quickly they forget the devastating effect of Section 28). Therefore the huge numbers of suicide ideation and mental health problems weren’t a surprise. She had started to think about how she could be more positive, especially with regards to the young followers she has on social media, which resulted in the setting up of Trans Secret Santa UK. (You can watch a video here, which includes Nancy Kelley gooning to camera and reveals what recipients were sent, a copy of A Trans Man Walks Into a Gay Bar: A Journey of Self (and Sexual) Discovery for one.) In its first year, 700 packages were sent out to kids all over the country (though I note the age range is 25 and under). She told the room Christmas that first year coincided with the week ‘the guidance was published*’ but failed to state which guidance this was, so the vast majority would have been none the wiser. Kelley, of course, the average ‘moderator’ that she is, failed to clarify things. The not-yet-published guidance made Guaitamacchi realise that the kids needed to be ‘love bombed’.
*Government guidance on ‘Gender questioning children‘ published on 19 December 2023.
Choudrey chipped in that although they weren’t able to provide hormones or healthcare, they could remind children what gave them ‘gender euphoria’ (aka trans joy).
Allies could also give hope, said Kaveney, as so many more people were prepared to stand up and be counted. Apropros of nothing, Kaveney bought up the murder of Brianna Ghey (mispronouncing Ghey as Gay). Following the murder, Kaveney had got in touch with an artist friend, Bill Sienkiewicz, and asked him to do a portrait in Ghey’s memory. Sure enough, a few days later, Sienkiewicz produced the monstrosity below, which Kaveney characterised as ‘slightly idealised’. More like Alice in Wonderland, I’d say. Kaveney boasted that he hadn’t paid Sienkiewicz and that there was an art to asking (they are at least mutual follows on Twitter).
How would you advise yearning activists to navigate spaces with intersectional needs?
Fount of wisdom Kaveney answered this one. You needed to be prepared to listen. For example, Kaveney doesn’t ‘get’ furries but recognises that it is a thing. He also quoted Morgan M. Page who has apparently said that trans people should not slag each other off. Which was perfectly contradicted by the anecdote that Kaveney told next: Back in his early days of being terminally online, there were individuals who would claim to be a ‘classic transsexual’ (aka old skool transsexual) and eventually Kaveney sniped back to one: ‘Is that like the Classic Coke rebrand, which lacks all taste?’ So much for not slagging off the community, Kavva! ‘That’s solidarism through bitchiness, I’m here for that,’ toadied Kelley. And then it was all over.
You can listen here to the recording.
Conclusion
Well, I suppose we can all agree that the ‘classic transsexual’ is nothing more than a myth – how’s that for a bit of common ground! The podcast features ads placed by (?)Microsoft Windows and gambling giant Ladbrookes. If you go to the Trans Santa UK website you can receive your gift by completing a Google doc form and agreeing to share your information with them and their merchandise partner. I’m not sure what the conclusion was to the original question posed: How do we win our rights? Continue grooming the professional class in their ivory towers, I suspect.
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