In conversation with Freddy McConnell, Charlotte Proudman and Robin White

The blurby bit

British gender laws and self identification: Where are we now, and what do we hope for the future of Britain’s laws?

Join AnotherWay Now and a team of expert panelists for a discussion on transgender identity in the UK.

Hear how our gendered society can inhibit people’s ability to fully discover and express themselves. 

See how film and TV over the years has portrayed trans people and hear what lessons we still have to learn.

Join us for an in-depth and compassionate panel discussion with trans rights experts and activists, followed by audience Q&A.

Panellist: Dr Charlotte Proudman (Mad LibFem closely associated with Jolyon the Fox Killer)

Panellist: Freddy McConnell (Mum what had two babies but challenged UK government to be known as dad)

Panellist: Robin White (Bloke’ish barrister, previously represented Stonewall)

Panellist: Hiba Noor

Hiba Noor is the first Pakistani trans Filmmaker and Director in Muslim World. Pakistani human rights defender, activist, social scientist, Poet , Sketch Artist, Photographer and painter with 6 years of experience working in gender equality, livelihoods and economic empowerment through her camera frame. She is the first pakistani who achieved her higher studies as trans women.She started her career as an Assistant Director for a Morning Show for Pakistan national TV.

Moderator: Sam Fowles 

Dr Sam Fowles is a barrister, author, and Director of the Institute for Constitutional and Democratic Research. Sam’s practice focuses on public and constitutional law and human rights. Notable cases include Miller/Cherry v The Prime Minister, Hamilton v Post Office, and the Clapham Common inquiry. Sam was recently part of the team representing Stonewall, intervening to support the Scottish Government in its challenge to the Secretary of State for Scotland’s decision to veto the Gender Recognition Reform Bill. Sam’s book, “Overruled: Confronting Our Vanishing Democracy in 8 Cases”, explores the UK’s democratic decline through the lens of the cases he has argued. Sam is an associate at St Edmund Hall, University of Oxford, and writes a regular column for Perspective Magazine.

Details posted to Eventbrite (comments in brackets add by me)

Introduction

AnotherWay Now (note the pretentious condensed spacing) hosts debates and styles itself as a human rights organisation. The audience was fairly sparse and either trans-identified, or already confirmed allies. Before the event started Robin Moira White entertained little Freddy McConnell with anecdotes. Meanwhile Charlotte Proudman looked rather unlike the glamourous images she posts of herself online, so I guess she must have a fair understanding of dysphoria. For no discernible reason a security guard sat on the sideline throughout. He had a stab vest on and everything.

‘”Good evening and welcome”, to those of you who are old enough to remember that phrase,’ began Tina Kothari cretinously. Kothari was host for the evening and Director of AnotherWay Now. Kothari, who delivers training to blue chip clients according to her LinkedIn profile, really wanted us to know how angst-ridden she was about language. The evening had been a long time in the making and during research she had discovered that the trans community was expected to be ‘invisible and insignificant’ but moreover they were also a running joke.

In a clearly practised speech, Kothari told us she wasn’t talking about people being outsiders or not fitting in, those are just feelings and experiences that people get. She was talking about identity. And she had heard a trans person say the other day, ‘I wish I’d never been born trans’. This had blown her way and had convinced her that language fundamentally needed to be changed.

Everyman Cinema always give their space free of charge to AnotherWay Now, whatever event they hold, and for the event that night they had changed their toilet signage from EveryGirl/Boy to Everybody (such fun).

15 minute propaganda film

The first two minutes was taken up with an ‘uplifting’ speech accompanied by aspirational music, spoken by a Scottish woman who looked like she might identify as non-binary and didn’t sound unlike Nicola Sturgeon.

Then it quickly shifted into Piers Morgan bluntly asking a guest why he couldn’t identify as a black lesbian. A dozen examples were served up, but finished up with the secret recording of Rishi Sunak making a joke about Ed Davey’s lack of biology knowledge.

Then we had some factoids from the US media organisation GLAAD: trans people were cast as victims in role 40% of the time, or as killers/villains (21% of the time), or sex workers. Overall they were depicted in a bad light 54% and only 12% fairly.

Trans activists then directly addressed the camera, including Juno Dawson (a man who previously identified as gay), and a woman who runs the Black Trans Foundation (which very much sounds like a one man band), who identifies as non-binary. In turns, they explained to us how terrifying it was to be trans in the UK right now. Dawson explained that ‘transphobes’ were mostly very clever, which meant they could word their arguments very eloquently and ‘poetically’. McConnell also appeared in the film, to tell us that trans people were forced to avoid Twitter if a big story comes out in the Sunday Times.

Of course, none of the concerning stories about trans people could be mentioned (e.g. the closure of the Tavistock (now delayed), the case of rapist Isla Bryson, the bullying of the EHRC, etc.) but one thing they did get right was that the proposed reform of the Gender Recognition Act in 2018 was what kickstarted the backlash against trans activism. Even though the fee for a Gender Recognition Certificate has now been reduced to £5, we had the woman from the Black Trans Foundation tell us that the process was ‘archaic and humiliating’, even though applicants never meet the panel. Of course, non-binary people had been left out of the process altogether, which meant she was ‘invisible’.

The film also specifically addressed puberty blockers, admitting that the High Court of Justice in England and Wales had ruled that children under the age of 16 should no longer be allowed access to puberty blockers. It was claimed these drugs only temporarily stop puberty and the effects were completely reversible. Dawson, who transitioned in his early 30s, was worried that his own supply to cross sex hormones might be cut off by the government (despite this having never been seriously mooted by anyone on the gender critical side).

Felix Mufti, a tragi-comic trans-identified female, was then presented as a case study. Felix came out as trans when she was 14. Puberty had made her feel uncomfortable and she had started puberty earlier than most; in particular having ‘boobs’ (i.e. like most girls during puberty). Despite claiming to have started puberty early, it wasn’t until Felix was aged 14/15 that she wanted to get puberty blockers, however waiting times meant she couldn’t get an appointment. Cue serious music and McConnell stating that ‘puberty blockers give trans teenagers time to figure out their identities’. Felix had a three year wait for the Tavistock to be told she needed to be seen in an adult clinic, so allegedly had her first real appointment aged 19. Felix testified again to wanting blockers, claiming it would have stopped her dysphoria, and was sad now that she had been ‘ravaged’ by her own biology.

Freddy rounded off by telling us that most of us would never know a trans person and the way to counter this was through having people know trans people through the telly. Dawson told us that trans people were really dull (you’re not kidding) and that eventually people would get bored. There was no agenda, Dawson claimed. Cue footage of trans activists loudly exclaiming the exact opposite, shouting ‘trans rights are human rights’ and serendipitously the camera lingered over protestors who had a side order of fetish.

Panel discussion

Kothari came back to the stage to introduce the barrister-cum-activist hosting the discussion, Dr Sam Fowles.  A man so posh he makes the Prince of Wales sound rough and so stupid he makes Prince Harry look genius.  Fowles was ‘currently working on gender recognition in the courts’ and is a resource that Kothari regularly relies on.  

As the panel stepped up to the stage, Robin ‘Moira’ White observed that he would let Freddy ‘sit in the blue-chair’ whilst predictably parking his fat arse in the pink-.  

Fowles began by explaining that his presence as white cis straight man was problematic (but not enough to turn down the gig) and wanted to be heard ‘as little as possible’.  Freddy McConnell was described as an ‘awarding journalist’ and as ‘a dad, who shared his experiences of pregnancy’.  More recently McConnell had been nominated for an award for an LGBTQ+ junket and had also written a children’s book, published by Puffin, called the ‘Little Seahorse and the Big Question’ (wonder what that’s about?). 

On introducing Robin White, Fowles revealed that currently he was being led by White in a case they were working on, and that White was technically his boss.  

Hiba Noor had previously worked for Pakistan’s state television channel, producing its morning show. (We later learned this was apparently prior to transitioning, though it was implied that it wasn’t, thus leaving us utterly confused.)

Charlotte Proudman was introduced as a feminist fighter and leader, crucially described as fighting for ‘gender equality’.  

Rishi’s common sense pledge

Fowles wanted to know what the panel thought of Rishi Sunak’s recent comments at the Conservative Party Conference, that ‘a woman is a woman and a man is a man’.  Fowles described this as ‘saying the quiet part out loud’ and that ‘attacking trans people’ was now a pillar of government strategy to win the next election. 

White didn’t think that the Conservatives had much chance of getting in at the next election, nevertheless he urged everyone to ask candidates what their position on trans rights were and that no one should vote Conservative.  

Hiba Noor told us that he had come to the UK to seek protection and now felt threatened.  He told us that in Pakistan a trans person couldn’t even walk in the street and didn’t want the Conservatives to win.  Noor has made an asylum claim to live in Britain because he identifies as trans, though I expect the real reason is because he is homosexual and is the victim of transgender ideology, as per Pakistan’s legislation for suspected homosexuals. 

Charlotte Proudman agreed with the men but wanted to add that the Conservatives were pandering to a very right wing audience, like the Daily Mail, and was deliberately encouraging discrimination, harassment and hate crime against trans people.  She also felt that the government view of trans people would also affect immigration policies, e.g. people wouldn’t just be allowed to say they were trans in order gain asylum.  Things were very dangerous.

Fowles came to Freddy McConnell last, since they had had an uplifting conversation earlier.  McConnell had started a new job the week before at an NHS Trust.  Her role was to make the new phalloplasty surgery unit at Chelsea & Westminster ‘as good as it can be’ for women seeking to have a roll of fat from their arm removed and attached to their pubis.  Below is possibly the job description for the role she has taken – note experience level is ‘not specified’ and organisation type is ‘philanthropy’. It also does not specify the pay Band.

A colleague at the Trust had attended a meeting with Steve Barclay at Parliament a week earlier and had assured McConnell that Barclay was all rhetoric. McConnell felt that if the Conservatives did win all these current pledges would fall away.  

Question to Robin Wright on Equality Law

Fowles repeated the statement Sunak had made; We know what a man is, we know what a woman is, but Fowles wanted to know if that was right in terms of equality law.  

White suggested that Sunak needed to read the GRA and that Lady Haldene had a much better idea, in that ‘sex’ really meant ‘legal sex’.  He also claimed that the Equality Act also recognised that ‘sex’ meant ‘legal sex’ because it had provisions in it about being changing physiological or other aspects of sex in order to gain a GRC.  

White sees himself as an ‘old fashioned liberal Conservative’ but now feels ‘politically homeless’ since Sunak’s ‘goose-step to the right’.  White warned us we should be very scared and that a return to power for the current government would be ‘very dangerous’ (which is hilarious when you remember it was the Conservatives who originally mooted the reform of the GRA, with Teresa May a keen supporter).  

The protection of gender critical views

Fowles alluded to Maya Forstater’s legal victory, which protects the rights of those to state that biological sex is real.  Fowles said this could be described as ‘trans discriminatory views’ and asked if this was a new trend?  And, if so, how should we respond? 

White responded that Stonewall didn’t lose the Bailey case, taking credit as junior counsel.  ‘She is appealing,’ White said of Allison Bailey, ‘only in the legal sense.’  Fowles and Proudman laughed at the old sexist’s joke. 

[Allison Bailey] is appealing. Only in the legal sense.

Robin White being professional, as always

White, whose specialism is employment and discrimination law, ridiculed the fact that Bailey had challenged Garden Court Chambers, describing it as a ‘crazy case’ only bought to ‘keep us all busy’.  However, White wanted to keep an open mind about ‘challenging views’ because if we didn’t women wouldn’t be able to own property, using the example of his own mother who lost her job on the event of her marriage.  In other words, White was making exactly the same argument that sex realists have put forward, that discrimination is sex-based.  It’s always fine for these people to contradict themselves though and none of the panel challenged his assumption that his mother was discriminated against for being female because how ridiculous would that be?  

White compared the current fall out between gender critical women and trans rights activists to that of the disagreements between gay people and religious people.  According to White, these two groups were managing to peacefully co-exist with each other.  The analogy doesn’t really work though because gay people aren’t demanding entry into religious spaces, similarly religious people aren’t demanding entry into gay nightclubs, therefore there is little for either side to fall out over practically-speaking.  

As to whether sex realists would continue to make inroads against the monolith trans ideology has turned out to be? White wasn’t sure, but it’s how he makes his living, so he hopes so.

Healthcare

Fowles then wanted to discuss McConnell’s two areas of expertise; healthcare and journalism.  He referred to the ‘scandal at the Tavistock’ without stating what that was and referred to ‘trans people not being able to use the correct wards’, but was that really what it was like? 

McConnell correctly pointed out that her entire experience of the NHS was working in one hospital for only one week but still felt confident to assert ‘that’s not what it’s like at all’.  On the issue of single sex wards, McConnell believes such things will not come to fruition and that in the current NHS set up, single sex wards were very rare indeed, only in cases like gynaecology or other sex specific conditions.  

McConnell asserted that in fact it was trans people who endured uncomfortable experiences as inpatients, also claiming that no one had ever complained about a trans woman being on a female ward (relying on the statistic created by an FOI to less than half NHS Trusts), she said that there had probably been tons of complaints made by trans people ‘meekly’ saying: ‘I had a terrible experience just now, could we do something about that next time.  Could I have a private room next time?’ (another meme).

Private rooms tend to be where we want to be anyway, we don’t want to be on an open ward, because we know it’s going to be a terrible experience.  

Freddy McConnell on bed provision for trans-identified people

She went onto explain that even when health professionals did their best, it still wasn’t possible for trans people to have the experience they deserved. Her new colleagues were desperate to have trans awareness training.  In fact, only that morning she had received an email from the radiology department saying “Hey, this is our new radiology form”.  McConnell couldn’t remember what type of scan it was but showed off her expert knowledge that ‘it was one you shouldn’t have if you’re pregnant’.  McConnell claimed that was sent to her without her requesting it (snort).  In news which will shock no one, the form needs quite a bit of work.  We hope it only results in some funny stories about men being asked if they are pregnant and not pregnant women being incorrectly triaged.  

White had been in hospital earlier in the year due to cardiac issues and gave a long and boring anecdote about how he had won over ‘another lady’ on the ward.  He did admit though that the woman correctly spotted that he was a bloke.  She was as pleased as punch to have met White, which is how we can be sure that this was an utter lie.  

Fowles mentions the Tavistock again …

… and again failed to mention anything about Keira Bell’s case and the Cass Review which led up to its closure.  In an obvious dodge, McConnell claimed she wasn’t ‘entirely up-to-date’ on the provision of ‘trans healthcare’ for children, even though she had made that a core issue in the film we had just watched, clearly produced by her. It is also a given that patients to Chelsea & Westminster service will have had some form of hormone blocking, so you think she might be a little bit interested.  Instead she wanted to talk about the service she was now heading up, the ‘lower surgery unit’ at the Chelsea & Westminster set up a year ago in response to lack of provision.  McConnell said that previously surgery had been carried out in the private sector and that the private hospital ‘wasn’t a particularly nice place to be’.  The experiences of those patients was so bad NHS England shut down that particular pathway completely for about 18-24 months during the pandemic.  This had resulted in a growing waiting list but moreover there were women in-between procedures who had been left high and dry with multiple complications.  Some of them were not able to work and/or leave their houses due to catheter problems or pain.  Because no one cares about ‘trans men’, these things were allowed to happen. 

The website address for the service is https://gendersurgery.chelwest.nhs.uk/ Note how the Trust has chosen to make the site completely separate from the rest of the main site, whose main address is https://www.chelwest.nhs.uk/   Smacks of embarrassment, doesn’t it?  

The new unit, however, was going to be ‘incredible’, McConnell assured us.  The service had been open for a year now (though a little birdie tells me they haven’t seen a single patient yet) and apart from herself and another ‘guy’, everyone working in the service was ‘cis’ (in this case meaning mentally abnormal).  

What were Hiba’s experiences of intersectionality? 

Noor came to the UK in 2021 to claim asylum and arrived in the country on an airplane flight. He was not happy being asked to share a room with another ‘adult’ asylum seeker as they might either be ‘transphobic or homophobic’. Last October, the UK Home Office informed Noor they were going to move him from London to Kent, Noor however disagreed with this decision as he was in the process of transitioning, including counselling and taking medications. He refused to move to the proposed space, which was apparently with six other adults in a hostel. Noor felt that Ukrainian refugees were treated better than other refugees; treated as ‘human’ as opposed to ‘non-human’.

Noor explained the reason why he had to leave Iran was because he was ‘transgender’ and had refused to work at a conference at which former associates of Osama bin Laden attended. The conference aim was to educate people on how to ‘kill transgender people’ and ‘how to impose religious law on women’. Without any emotion whatsoever, Noor claimed that his brother and mother were killed by the same, and moved directly onto the male receptionist of the hostel he had stayed in, who would recite the Koran on sight of Noor, abuse which was homophobic in nature. Noor had complained about this to the Home Office but had never received a reply. He also complained he had been waiting two and a half years to get his refugee status, and for every story he could tell about Iran, the UK asylum system was providing him with fresh horrors on a daily basis. All of which made it sound like he hadn’t really escaped from a dire situation.

So much anti-trans discrimination is phrased through the lens of feminism …

… said Fowles to Charlotte Proudman. Proudman was disappointed more feminists hadn’t come out in support of the ‘trans rights revolution’, though on the other hand she wasn’t surprised because of the ire directed at trans allies, like herself. In particular, Proudman was very disappointed by those working in the ‘violence against women and girls’ sector. She had attended the talk that Catherine MacKinnon had given on trans rights at Oxford the year before, who had argued that radical/intersectional feminism and trans rights sit together. Proudman believes that ‘bodily autonomy’ is one of the uniting issues and was saddened by what she regards as ‘biological determinism’, which fed the men’s rights activist agenda. Gender, she said, is very much constructed and not determined at all.

Proudman referred to the concerns about toilets, refuges and sports as ‘banal’, at which point White jumped in to point out that a woman had actually been raped by a ‘trans person’ in a UK hospital. And why should that one instance mean ‘trans women’ should be banned from female wards across the whole country?, opined White. White extended the logic of that ban; it therefore meant that ‘trans women’ should be banned from every place where a rape had occurred, e.g. every house, every park, every railway station across the country! Proudman agreed, not only was it ‘illogical’, but also ‘disproportionate’. She got down to the bones of the matter, or the bone to be more precise, it assumed that ‘anyone with a penis was dangerous’. This was where the biological determinism came in. The real danger was in the way ‘power’ was understood in our society, Sunak had it but minorities didn’t (I think she was implying Sunak was a ‘coconut’). Also, Proudman complained, gender critical feminists kept exploiting examples useful to their cause. Damn Andrew Miller!

What’s the one thing LGBTQIA+ people and allies do to resist this?

Noor claimed that laws were passed in his country in the 1860s (Iran was founded in 1979) which made the lives hell for his LGBTQI siblings. ‘Transgender was a symbol of love in my country and culture’, but not just that, also ‘a symbol of education’; people would send their children to trans people to learn about ethics. Favoured by the Emperors, no less. Everyone needed to unite. ‘Very powerful,’ commented Fowles.

‘I think at this point people have to speak up,’ said McConnell. Silence was complicity. The Tories were getting away with saying ‘horrific things’ and were able to say it because there wasn’t widespread outrage. McConnell then claimed that the Royal College of Nursing had put out a statement condemning Sunak’s simplistic statement about the sexes. (In fact, it was in response to the Health Secretary’s speech, see below.) The BMA also responded to the Health Secretary’s speech, again trans-identified people are mentioned but are not the main focus of the press release, nor is Sunak (as claimed by White).

McConnell fretted that the RCN would retract the above statement because of a backlash and that the statement was ‘extraordinary’ in its condemnation. If only celebrities could get involved and speak out, ‘like they do for other minorities’. Seriously, what planet does this woman live on?

Proudman wanted all feminist organisations join the trans activist cause. She knew many were secretly supportive but feared the backlash if they went public.

It was the 569th time that White had spoken publicly on trans issues. He moved to a village in Somerset just after he ‘transitioned’. The local women’s group was called the *Stogumber Ladies And Girls Group, or SLAGG for short, (again Proudman and Fowles cravenly laughed at his sexist claptrap). Naturally, the women in the village were desperate to hear him talk about his transition. White, adding believable detail, said his talk was ‘quite quietly received’ but went on to ruin this by telling us he learnt from Roger, who ran the local shop, that the ladies loved the talk but too shy to ask questions. Thus, for the next 18 months, White was petitioned by the ‘granny’ (who lived in the shop with Roger) with additional questions whenever he went in. In the last 24 hours, White received over 20 messages of support from the villagers following Sunak’s speech.

* According to the Stogumber website, the women’s group is known as the Stogumber Ladies Group, not SLAGG, but I digress.

Question and Answer session

Just 12 minutes were left to the audience to ask questions, so much for learning from the panel.

What could Labour do to improve things?

White said Labour should push through the conversion therapy bill (just a couple of weeks later Sunak reneged on the Conservative pledge to amend this). White declared an interest, he is the lawyer representing the Memorandum of Understanding.

Can you please shed some light on the Equality Act?

Asked one woman, clearly an ally. ‘I’ve spent 30 years trying to do that,’ White barked at her, interrupting. She wanted to understand better the difference between biological sex and legal sex and how that fitted into the ‘transgender rights’ enshrined into the Equality Act. Further, she wanted to know the definition of sex as set out in the Equality Act and how that impacted trans rights. ‘How long have you got?’ blustered White, commenting that someone in the audience looked like Laurence Fox (who a few days earlier had said something stupid, resulting in his dismissal from GB News). Not knowing how to react, the audience tittered.

Enticed by Fowles to answer the question, White coyly responded: ‘Yes, but you all have homes to go to’. Again, the audience tittered, misunderstanding that White was running down the clock. He wanted to tell us that he was 59 and he remembered the moral panic about HIV. Guess what? The media treat trans people the same way they treated gay men with HIV back in the 80s. And something about Lady Diana. His ‘one minute’ answer to the question about the Equality Act was:

Because of the way the Act is drafted, it almost certainly means different things in different places, [and] is the only way you can successfully interpret the Act. And that’s difficult for lawyers and for courts and so it is going to keep me in beer and sandwiches for a long time.

Robin White – Beer and sandwiches, how ladylike!

More titters.

A comment from a trans-identified female.

The Tories were making her feel bad and even if Labour did get in, the damage was already done. Was there any cause for hope?

McDonnell talked about the recent British Social Attitudes Survey, which had apparently shown a drop in those people who said there weren’t prejudiced against trans people (82% last year but now 64% this year, she said). This was a direct result of the negativity and rhetoric but would eventually run out of steam, then the numbers would go back up.

Kotari wraps up

‘Special thanks to our moderator,’ said Kotari ‘without a watch’. Fowles grinned foolishly at the swipe. She urged us to explore the QR code (which lead to this document). Then one of her team was dragged onto the stage, – let’s call her Bubbles – Bubbles had been micromanaging Kotari’s language, producing a three page detailed analysis of what she should be saying. Bubbles was thanked profusely by Kotari, looking more like a rabbit trapped in headlights than someone who had taken Kotari to task. This groundbreaking document was supposedly on the website but appears to have not made the cut. Shame.

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